Re: What the hell just happened!

Steve Miller Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:00 am

Status report from Valley Guns in West Virginia :

Status of gun industry

Attention F.B. fans: to follow will be several IMPORTANT Info
updates about the status of the gun industry currently, followed by an
INVENTORY UPDATE: We traveled to Texas for Industry meetings
concerning the shortages, here's what we were told.

Smith & Wesson-is running at Full capacity making 300+
guns/day-mainly M&P pistols. They are unable to produce any more guns
to help with the shortages.

RUGER: Plans to increase from 75% to 100% in the next 90 days.

FNH: Moving from 50% production to 75% by Feb 1st and 100% by March 1.

Remington-Maxed out!

Armalite: Maxed out.

DPMS: Can't get enough parts to produce any more product.

COLT: Production runs increasing weekly...bottle necked by Bolt
carrier's.

LWRC:Making only black guns, running at full capacity...can't
get enough gun quality steel to make barrels.

Springfield Armory: Only company who can meet demand but are
running 30-45 days behind.

AMMO: Every caliber is now Allocated! We are looking at a nation
wide shortage of all calibers over the next 9 months. All plants are
producing as much ammo as possible w/ of 1 BILLION rounds produced
weekly. Most is military followed by L.E. and civilians are third in
line.

MAGPUL is behind 1 MILLION mags, do not expect any large
quantities of magpul anytime soon.

RELOADERS... ALL Remington, Winchester, CCI & Federal primers
are going to ammo FIRST. There are no extra's for reloading
purposes... it could be 6-9 months before things get caught up. Sorry
for the bleak news, but now we know what to expect in the coming
months. Stay tuned, we'll keep you posted...

Related commentary from Bob Owens :
They didn’t know when they’d be getting anything back in stock,
from magazines to rifles to pistols. Manufacturers were running
full-bore, but couldn’t come close to keeping up with market demand.
It wasn’t just the AR-15s, the AK-pattern rifles, the M1As, and the
FALs that were sold out. It really hit me when I realized that the
World War-era M1 Garands, M1 carbines, and Enfield .303s were gone,
along with every last shell. Ubiquitous Mosin-Nagants—of which every
gun store always seems to have 10-20—were gone. So was their ammo.
Only a dust free space marked their passing. I’ve never seen anything
like it.

Every weapon of military utility designed within the past 100+
years was gone. This isn’t a society stocking up on certain guns
because they fear they may be banned. This is a society preparing for
war.

Barack Obama, Dianne Feinstein and the rest of the Statists have
done more to promote gun ownership than the NRA ever did. Well done,
Democrats!

And it is the same story at every gun store in the entire country! Very Happy

This should be a big boost in the president's job numbers he has sure protected a lot of jobs in the gun industry. Plus it should help with the stock market in shares for Smith and Wesson, Remington, Colt, Winchester, Springfield Armory, etc., etc., etc.. Then there is lead mining, copper mining, steel industry, if they will push a little harder at gun control the economy just may turn around.

The Lone Ranger Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:21 am

Steve Miller wrote:Status report from Valley Guns in West Virginia :

Status of gun industry

Attention F.B. fans: to follow will be several IMPORTANT Info
updates about the status of the gun industry currently, followed by an
INVENTORY UPDATE: We traveled to Texas for Industry meetings
concerning the shortages, here's what we were told.

Smith & Wesson-is running at Full capacity making 300+
guns/day-mainly M&P pistols. They are unable to produce any more guns
to help with the shortages.

RUGER: Plans to increase from 75% to 100% in the next 90 days.

FNH: Moving from 50% production to 75% by Feb 1st and 100% by March 1.

Remington-Maxed out!

Armalite: Maxed out.

DPMS: Can't get enough parts to produce any more product.

COLT: Production runs increasing weekly...bottle necked by Bolt
carrier's.

LWRC:Making only black guns, running at full capacity...can't
get enough gun quality steel to make barrels.

Springfield Armory: Only company who can meet demand but are
running 30-45 days behind.

AMMO: Every caliber is now Allocated! We are looking at a nation
wide shortage of all calibers over the next 9 months. All plants are
producing as much ammo as possible w/ of 1 BILLION rounds produced
weekly. Most is military followed by L.E. and civilians are third in
line.

MAGPUL is behind 1 MILLION mags, do not expect any large
quantities of magpul anytime soon.

RELOADERS... ALL Remington, Winchester, CCI & Federal primers
are going to ammo FIRST. There are no extra's for reloading
purposes... it could be 6-9 months before things get caught up. Sorry
for the bleak news, but now we know what to expect in the coming
months. Stay tuned, we'll keep you posted...

Related commentary from Bob Owens :
They didn’t know when they’d be getting anything back in stock,
from magazines to rifles to pistols. Manufacturers were running
full-bore, but couldn’t come close to keeping up with market demand.
It wasn’t just the AR-15s, the AK-pattern rifles, the M1As, and the
FALs that were sold out. It really hit me when I realized that the
World War-era M1 Garands, M1 carbines, and Enfield .303s were gone,
along with every last shell. Ubiquitous Mosin-Nagants—of which every
gun store always seems to have 10-20—were gone. So was their ammo.
Only a dust free space marked their passing. I’ve never seen anything
like it.

Every weapon of military utility designed within the past 100+
years was gone. This isn’t a society stocking up on certain guns
because they fear they may be banned. This is a society preparing for
war.

Barack Obama, Dianne Feinstein and the rest of the Statists have
done more to promote gun ownership than the NRA ever did. Well done,
Democrats!

And it is the same story at every gun store in the entire country!

This should be a big boost in the president's job numbers he has sure protected a lot of jobs in the gun industry. Plus it should help with the stock market in shares for Smith and Wesson, Remington, Colt, Winchester, Springfield Armory, etc., etc., etc.. Then there is lead mining, copper mining, steel industry, if they will push a little harder at gun control the economy just may turn around.

It never ceases to amaze me how violent our society truly is, it would seem that we are always willing to spend billions on weapons both for government and private use. The answer to problems is not violence and yet that is what is glorified both in movies, games, sports etc.etc. etc. If any money is spent on education, research and development, rebuilding our crumbling roads and bridges or even making sure everyone has enough to eat in a land of plenty it is considered too expensive. How many poor children could be fed for one year for the price of one aircraft carrier? It's very interesting that a man of war Eisenhower in 4 years had the whole interstate highway system constructed back in the 1950's. We can't even maintain that system today because Washington won't even setup a system of public and private partnership in order to raise money for repairs. How many construction jobs would be created just by repairing and improving our transportation system. This would have added advantage of making us more competitive globally, and bring jobs here from other countries, instead of the other way around. Our problem is very similar to the late Roman Empire, where the legions were more expensive to maintain, and it drained the financial resources to such a point that the Empire was not worth the cost of protecting it. Right now our country is faced with making choices, one of those choices will be to make a decision to continue to line the pockets of the Military Industrial Complex, that President Eisenhower warned against. The other choice is to scale back our military spending, use war only as a last resort not a first option, and start working to rebuild this country. Unless we are strong at home, we will find it harder and harder to support a military that is supposed to be able to fight two and half wars at once. Have a blessed day.

Steve Miller Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:08 pm

On this I agree with you!

If you pulled all U.S. government and Military people and equipment out of every other country in the world and brought them home you could cut military expenditures by half. The military could be effectively used to control/patrol our borders and completely stop illegal immigration and drug traffic. You just have to be willing to kill those who seek to invade this country from wherever and for whatever reasons.

Legalize all drugs and tax the crap out of their sale, the number of users won't increase but the number of dollars coming into the general fund will increase by at least 50%.

Open up all oil exploration and drilling, pipe line operations etc. etc. etc. you would increase jobs in all supporting industries as well as put money into intrastate road and rail systems.

Take the B.S. regulations off of land and farming process would increase food production here in the U.S. giving more for export. Farmers have always been the best husbands to the land they work because it is their livelihood.

Remove corporate taxes for U.S. based companies (ONLY IF THEY ARE PRODUCING IN THE U.S.) and increase taxes on products produced outside of this country, regardless of where the company is based. This will have a tremendous effect on the job rate in this country.

Stop spending trillions of dollars on the global warming nonsense idea that the government can do anything to control it, global warming and cooling have been happening since the beginning of time, we aren't going to change that. Stop spending billions more on B.S. Green science and let the green industry rise or fall on it's on. Ideas that will work will florish while the crap science will tend to go unfunded and fall by the wayside.

But first the people will have to be armed or none of the above can happen because of tyrannical leaders who feel they know best.

paradigm karaoke Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:34 pm

I agree with Steve?!?!?! affraid

Steve Miller Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:04 am

In Response to Brian's take on the American society being violent we aren't even close any where in our history to being violent.

In homicide rate alone the U.S. doesn't even make the top 100, although Chicago and DC with the strongest gun control in our country to make the the top 2 deadliest cities in the U.S., the U.S. statistic factor in all homicides justifiable or not, many countries do not add homicides by police action or justified homicides to their numbers.

Many countries such as Russia, North Korea, China and many others don't even come close to reporting the number of homicides in their own countries because the governments are the ones doing them.

Then you have to factor in robberies, rapes, etc., etc., etc., as being violence also with those factored (in except for Chicago and DC) the U.S. falls so far down the list.

But that is beginning to change for the U.S. not because of "citizens" having guns but because of the influx of Mexican and other South American drug gangs. Also factor in the totally uncontrolled distribution of mind altering drugs given out like candy to every kid in the U.S. who acts up a little, instead of a well deserved spanking, I think we will see the real effects of this action come to full bloom in the next 5 years.

Leopard Lizard Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:53 pm

But Drug gangs are nothing new. Almost every wave of immigrants have had their gangs from the Irish to the Italians to the "Russian Mafia" to the Viet Namese to you name it. We make movies and TV shows glorifying the Italian gangs yet blame the Mexicans for every problem in the country.

Steve Miller Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:19 pm

Leopard Lizard wrote:But Drug gangs are nothing new. Almost every wave of immigrants have had their gangs from the Irish to the Italians to the "Russian Mafia" to the Viet Namese to you name it. We make movies and TV shows glorifying the Italian gangs yet blame the Mexicans for every problem in the country.

Yes there have been "other gangs" but on a much smaller scale and certainly none more violent. I am not talking about just Mexican drug gangs here, there are many drug cartels from South America as well. My Daughter in laws family immigrated out of Mexico 25 years ago (legally) to get away from the violence they saw and knew was going to escalate. Her entire family is scared to death of what they see happening here today, Hannet told me she sees the same thing that happened in Mexico 40 years ago happening here in the U.S. today.

Steve Miller Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:42 pm

Leaked White paper from the DOJ giving full power to the president to kill any threat to the U.S. Government by drone or surgical strike regardless of location or citizenship. ie: it can now be done on U.S. soil to U.S. citizens if they are deemed a threat to the government.

Most people don't realize that this power was assumed by our government by the Republicans back in 1861, then was used again by Democrats in 1992 at Ruby Ridge, then again in 1993 at Waco Texas.

The Lone Ranger Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:55 am

Steve Miller wrote:Leaked White paper from the DOJ giving full power to the president to kill any threat to the U.S. Government by drone or surgical strike regardless of location or citizenship. ie: it can now be done on U.S. soil to U.S. citizens if they are deemed a threat to the government.

Most people don't realize that this power was assumed by our government by the Republicans back in 1861, then was used again by Democrats in 1992 at Ruby Ridge, then again in 1993 at Waco Texas.

Better watch out Thunder they probably have a heat seeking drone targeted on you amp at the show.

kjathena Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:58 pm

IT IS THE MARK OF AN EDUCATED MIND TO BE ABLE TO ENTERTAIN A THOUGHT WITHOUT ACCEPTING IT....... This should apply to ALL who start wall fights over THEIR opinion .....We have to learn to listen and respect all EVEN if we dont agree with them.....too Much drama in our community.... this should be the number one rule.

personally I would prefer to be dead than to have to deal with the world that "doomsday preppers" expect...I know I could not kill hungry children looking for food....but I can entertain the thoughts of those who truly believe these scenarios without accepting them as my reality

Steve Miller Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:19 pm

kjathena wrote:IT IS THE MARK OF AN EDUCATED MIND TO BE ABLE TO ENTERTAIN A THOUGHT WITHOUT ACCEPTING IT....... This should apply to ALL who start wall fights over THEIR opinion .....We have to learn to listen and respect all EVEN if we dont agree with them.....too Much drama in our community.... this should be the number one rule.

personally I would prefer to be dead than to have to deal with the world that "doomsday preppers" expect...I know I could not kill hungry children looking for food....but I can entertain the thoughts of those who truly believe these scenarios without accepting them as my reality

Good point! But I have lived my life, I am more interested in seeing my kids and grand kids being able to survive. If it comes to pass it will be a rough life and will take determined (and hard) people to survive, if it doesn't come to pass then no one is out anything. But those who are actually prepared will have a lot better shot at surviving than those who aren't, even if it doesn't get to the point of anarchy.

The Lone Ranger Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:58 pm

Steve Miller wrote:
kjathena wrote:IT IS THE MARK OF AN EDUCATED MIND TO BE ABLE TO ENTERTAIN A THOUGHT WITHOUT ACCEPTING IT....... This should apply to ALL who start wall fights over THEIR opinion .....We have to learn to listen and respect all EVEN if we dont agree with them.....too Much drama in our community.... this should be the number one rule.

personally I would prefer to be dead than to have to deal with the world that "doomsday preppers" expect...I know I could not kill hungry children looking for food....but I can entertain the thoughts of those who truly believe these scenarios without accepting them as my reality

Good point! But I have lived my life, I am more interested in seeing my kids and grand kids being able to survive. If it comes to pass it will be a rough life and will take determined (and hard) people to survive, if it doesn't come to pass then no one is out anything. But those who are actually prepared will have a lot better shot at surviving than those who aren't, even if it doesn't get to the point of anarchy.

So that is the whole point survival, that might be good for animals with no ability to reason. Humans are more complex and it is not only life that matters, but the quality of that life. The most daunting task for the survivors in the new world, will be can they cope without some of the things they have taken for granted. Very few of us today have all the skills of our pioneer ancestors, who could and did make everything by hand. It would require skills long forgotten and it would be physically demanding, only the strong would survive. Have a blessed day.

Steve Miller Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:42 am

Forgotten by whom?

I am not saying that most will survive but there are those who stay prepared and teach their children the skills that are needed to survive, those are the ones that will survive they don't have to be strong just prepared and smart enough to use the tools that are available. When my brothers and I were younger in our teens and twenties from time to time one or the other or the whole bunch would go up on the mountain with nothing but a ball of string, a knife and an old army blanket and spend a week or two "roughing it", that was our idea of camping. Everyone of us can set snares for small game, build primitive weapons from what we find in the woods. it isn't that hard to do if you have the basics. Firearms and an ax makes it much easier though.

Speaking of firearms, another mass shooting 62 school aged kids were gunned down in one town in January, but for some reason it never made the news.

The Lone Ranger Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:26 pm

Steve Miller wrote:Forgotten by whom?

I am not saying that most will survive but there are those who stay prepared and teach their children the skills that are needed to survive, those are the ones that will survive they don't have to be strong just prepared and smart enough to use the tools that are available. When my brothers and I were younger in our teens and twenties from time to time one or the other or the whole bunch would go up on the mountain with nothing but a ball of string, a knife and an old army blanket and spend a week or two "roughing it", that was our idea of camping. Everyone of us can set snares for small game, build primitive weapons from what we find in the woods. it isn't that hard to do if you have the basics. Firearms and an ax makes it much easier though.

Speaking of firearms, another mass shooting 62 school aged kids were gunned down in one town in January, but for some reason it never made the news.

That living off the land was when you were much younger Thunder, you are now 58, with bad eye sight, didn't you say you only have one lung? If you got even any type of respiratory infection you would be in serious trouble and require hospitalization. You probably take medicine on a regular basis, I do. Once your stock piles run down they have to be replenished, that would require farming, hunting, fishing. Not to mention you would have to can, jar or some other way keep the food as long as possible. None of these are easy tasks. My dad lived that way in Oklahoma and it isn't easy, that's why he moved to the city during the later part of the Depression.

Leopard Lizard Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:18 pm

Thunder has said he can go two years on his supplies so we won't worry about him. He also lives where there is something to live from. I feel at a bit of a disadvantage as where I used to live I knew all of the plants and the habits of the animals (except I don't eat meat--just found it interesting that there is a method to the madness of hunting as you will see animals have habits and appear certain places at certain times once you stay out in the wilderness for an extended time). Out where we are now there are very few plants, no trees for wood, the water is 400 feet underground and we will all be fighting over kangaroo rats. I know the Paiutes made it but a lot of what they lived off of has been replaced by invader species and there wasn't quite the population pressure. Interesting scenario to contemplate.

Steve Miller Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:48 am

Leopard Lizard wrote:Thunder has said he can go two years on his supplies so we won't worry about him. He also lives where there is something to live from. I feel at a bit of a disadvantage as where I used to live I knew all of the plants and the habits of the animals (except I don't eat meat--just found it interesting that there is a method to the madness of hunting as you will see animals have habits and appear certain places at certain times once you stay out in the wilderness for an extended time). Out where we are now there are very few plants, no trees for wood, the water is 400 feet underground and we will all be fighting over kangaroo rats. I know the Paiutes made it but a lot of what they lived off of has been replaced by invader species and there wasn't quite the population pressure. Interesting scenario to contemplate.

Bury a 500 gallon plastic water tank (think cistern) it in the ground, buy five gallons of chlorine tablets, set yourself up a catch (up side down umbrella) for rain water, underground water will stay good for a number of years the chlorine will insure it. Dry fruits and veggi's and store them in either vacuum packed five gallon buckets (they will last for 5 to 10 years this way) or pressurize the buckets with nitrogen gas (keeps for 15 to 20 years). You can also can meat, fish, veggi's, fruits etc. etc. and get as much as 5 years out of it.

Firearms, ammo, etc. lightly oil wrapped in in cotton place it in PVC pipe cap the ends and install a bleed valve (like a tire valve) vacuum out the air and charge it with nitrogen, gun nor the ammo will corrode don't know how long it will last like that but a guesstimate would be 100+ years.

Buy any cast iron pots, pans and dutch ovens you can find, they are the best when cooking on pit fires.

You can bury any of these items in a location that you can find when you need it.

Steve Miller Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:21 am

The Lone Ranger wrote:That living off the land was when you were much younger Thunder, you are now 58, with bad eye sight, didn't you say you only have one lung? If you got even any type of respiratory infection you would be in serious trouble and require hospitalization. You probably take medicine on a regular basis, I do. Once your stock piles run down they have to be replenished, that would require farming, hunting, fishing. Not to mention you would have to can, jar or some other way keep the food as long as possible. None of these are easy tasks. My dad lived that way in Oklahoma and it isn't easy, that's why he moved to the city during the later part of the Depression.

Do you know how to build a fire pit? I do!

Do you know what an adz is and how to use it? I do!

Do you know how to can foods? I do I have been doing it since I was knee high to my mama and still do so every year?

Do you know how to take game and prepare it? I do!

Do you know how to build a fish trap out of nothing but twigs and sticks? I do!

Can you set a snare for rabbit or turkey? I can!

Even with my failing eye sight I can still drop a deer at 500 yards in one shot with a rifle or 30 yards with a bow.

By the way Kangaroo rat is very tasty, so are rattlesnakes and copperheads, (black snake stinks though).

If I need blood thinner I eat red clover (it is abundant in this area) or drink chamomile tea.

If I need to reduce high blood pressure I can drink hibiscus tea or eat the flowers.

Have an infection eat a load of garlic and goldenseal, have an open wound that is infected slice an irish potato and tie it on the open wound, need to stitch up a wound clean a horse hair (tail or mane) with alcohol thread it into a needle and start stitching. Set a broken bone not hard it has been done for 100's of years. Need alcohol not a problem plenty of stuff around to make a still out of, can use fruit, corn, corn stalks, woody vines (grape vines) there is a large source of material that can be used.

I was raised this way and my daughter was raised doing these things as well, my grand daughter isn't far behind either.

The point is I nor the members of my family are the only ones who can do these things, I believe you would be completely surprised by how many people possess the basic skills to survive and do it well, many even in your area.

JoeChartreuse Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:07 am

The Lone Ranger wrote:[Your the one who needs a history lesson the 2nd amendment right is not absolute, and there have been many cases of where the U.S. government has sized arms and ammo going to various groups of American citizens. Such as the army confiscating arms flooding into Kansas before the Civil War, and the Irish American rebels who tried to foment revolution in Canada after the Civil War. If you use deadly force to oppose a duly elected government, that makes you a rebel Thunder, not a patriot, unless of course the revolution is successful. If it is successful then you have the headache of forming something to follow it unless you opt for total anarchy. Then you would be right up their with all the other 3rd world countries mired in generations of civil war. The last time this country faced a large armed insurrection it was put down at great cost in both blood and treasure, and the South for generations was bitter about the outcome. You need to stop buying into to the NRA version of history.

P.S. Just for the record Thunder my major was history in college, I have a Master's Degree. What degree do you hold?

Incorrect. I am in complete agreement with Thunder.

First, as far as the statement regarding muskets and such- remember that they were the state of the art for everyone then- now semi's are.

Second, The 2nd amendment was enacted specifically to protect citizens from their own government. In the last 700 years, every civilization that has submitted to wepons control as been overcome by tyranny at least once. A great example is Japan. No swords and such were allowed to be owned by peasants, and they were subjugated until they learned to make discrete weapons from tools like the rice flail, (nunchucks), the hay fork ( sai), the walking stick ( Bo, Jo, and hanbo), the net (fishermen), etc. THIS is the history of arms control. You remember the recent shooting of children in a school? The one that's got all the gun control folks moving?

A week later- in China, where there is SERIOUS 100% gun contol- they same thing happened, but the sicko simply stabbed them all with a knife.

It's not the guns, it's the nuts.

As for criminals, do you really think someone who is making millions per year selling drugs cares about a gun possession charge?!? No. The only people affected are the law-abiding folks looking to defend themselves- the criminals will ALWAYS have the guns.

Here's even more fun: I have a license for just about everything. Therefore, I can buy rifles, shotguns, and handguns, I'm also allowed to buy swords, knives, razor whips, and morningstars- all designed to kill. Now the fun part: Here in NJ, I cannot buy pepper spray in over 3 ounces units, I cannot buy an asp baton, I cannot by a taser or a stun gun, I cannot carry my tonfa ( the martial arts weapon copied for police batons, and- even more disturbing- I, cannot even buy body armor!!!

I can, apparently kill anybody, but I am not allowed a NON-LETHAL self defense. As far as the body armor, I have to assume that this is because, in case the cops need to kill me, I must stay vulnerable. There is no other reason for it that I can think of.

Control the nuts, not the guns.

Fi

JoeChartreuse Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:15 am

Sorry, couldn't find an "edit" button. I know it's "weapon" not "wepon", I just can't type for crap.

What I forgot to add is that virtually EVERY government attempts weapons control at some point, with- as previously stated- almost total subjugation.

I would also add that if one were to check the states where most people can carry against crime rates in the total U.S., care to guess where their crime rates are? Yup, bottom of the heap. People generally don't want to go up against someone who can shoot back. Even criminals know that they can't spend money when they're dead.

The Lone Ranger Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:11 pm

JoeChartreuse wrote:Sorry, couldn't find an "edit" button. I know it's "weapon" not "wepon", I just can't type for crap.

What I forgot to add is that virtually EVERY government attempts weapons control at some point, with- as previously stated- almost total subjugation.

I would also add that if one were to check the states where most people can carry against crime rates in the total U.S., care to guess where their crime rates are? Yup, bottom of the heap. People generally don't want to go up against someone who can shoot back. Even criminals know that they can't spend money when they're dead.

So the answer Joe is to arm everyone and let everybody start shooting, and keep going until your are the last one standing? Even conservative Senators like Lindsey Graham doesn't see the need to be confronting the Army. We have in this country well over 300 million firearms, enough for everyone to have his own, are we any safer than say the citizens in Japan? Their murder rate is much less in a far more crowded country. Like I have said before even in the the Wild West the town marshal could make you check your gun in while you were in the city limits. You can't really believe that arming everyone is the answer.

Steve Miller Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:24 am

The Lone Ranger wrote:Your the one who needs a history lesson the 2nd amendment right is not absolute, and there have been many cases of where the U.S. government has sized arms and ammo going to various groups of American citizens. Such as the army confiscating arms flooding into Kansas before the Civil War, and the Irish American rebels who tried to foment revolution in Canada after the Civil War. If you use deadly force to oppose a duly elected government, that makes you a rebel Thunder, not a patriot, unless of course the revolution is successful. If it is successful then you have the headache of forming something to follow it unless you opt for total anarchy. Then you would be right up their with all the other 3rd world countries mired in generations of civil war. The last time this country faced a large armed insurrection it was put down at great cost in both blood and treasure, and the South for generations was bitter about the outcome. You need to stop buying into to the NRA version of history.

P.S. Just for the record Thunder my major was history in college, I have a Master's Degree. What degree do you hold?

I guess I missed this one (thanks Joe)

Brian, have you not bothered to read anything concerning the 2nd Amendment? Has the Government violated the Constitution from time to time and gotten away with it, yes they have! The only reason they don't do it completely is for the very reason they are trying to do gun control now, they can't shut down the Constitution and all the rights it affords as long as there is an armed population.

Yes to the victor goes the right to rewrite history as they see fit!

I do not "buy into anything" I listen to all sides of an argument and then decide for myself what I consider the correct path to take.

P.S. Just for the record, I had to drop out of school at age 14 and go to work full time when my father passed away in 1969. So I have an 8th grade formal education and am self taught to a higher "education". I can see that your masters degree has gotten you just about as far as my 8th grade education has gotten me! except:I live back in the woods you see my woman and the kids and the dogs and me
I've got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive, I can plow a field all day long I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too. Ain't too many things these old boys can't do, We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine, you can't starve us out and you can't make us run, cause we'se them ole boys raised on shotguns, we say grace and we say mamm if you ain't in to that we don't give a damn. We come from the West Virginia coal mines and the Rocky Mountains and the western skies
We're from North Carolina and South Alabam and little towns all around this land, And a country boy can survive country folks can survive Laughing

The Lone Ranger Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:55 am

Steve Miller wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:Your the one who needs a history lesson the 2nd amendment right is not absolute, and there have been many cases of where the U.S. government has sized arms and ammo going to various groups of American citizens. Such as the army confiscating arms flooding into Kansas before the Civil War, and the Irish American rebels who tried to foment revolution in Canada after the Civil War. If you use deadly force to oppose a duly elected government, that makes you a rebel Thunder, not a patriot, unless of course the revolution is successful. If it is successful then you have the headache of forming something to follow it unless you opt for total anarchy. Then you would be right up their with all the other 3rd world countries mired in generations of civil war. The last time this country faced a large armed insurrection it was put down at great cost in both blood and treasure, and the South for generations was bitter about the outcome. You need to stop buying into to the NRA version of history.

P.S. Just for the record Thunder my major was history in college, I have a Master's Degree. What degree do you hold?

I guess I missed this one (thanks Joe)

Brian, have you not bothered to read anything concerning the 2nd Amendment? Has the Government violated the Constitution from time to time and gotten away with it, yes they have! The only reason they don't do it completely is for the very reason they are trying to do gun control now, they can't shut down the Constitution and all the rights it affords as long as there is an armed population.

Yes to the victor goes the right to rewrite history as they see fit!

I do not "buy into anything" I listen to all sides of an argument and then decide for myself what I consider the correct path to take.

P.S. Just for the record, I had to drop out of school at age 14 and go to work full time when my father passed away in 1969. So I have an 8th grade formal education and am self taught to a higher "education". I can see that your masters degree has gotten you just about as far as my 8th grade education has gotten me! except:I live back in the woods you see my woman and the kids and the dogs and me
I've got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive, I can plow a field all day long I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too. Ain't too many things these old boys can't do, We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine, you can't starve us out and you can't make us run, cause we'se them ole boys raised on shotguns, we say grace and we say mamm if you ain't in to that we don't give a damn. We come from the West Virginia coal mines and the Rocky Mountains and the western skies
We're from North Carolina and South Alabam and little towns all around this land, And a country boy can survive country folks can survive

Just for the record Steve I'm no to manor born person either. My father was a self made man with little education, he mad sure that all 8 of his children did have one. I went to war and used my G.I. bill and worked my way through college, the first one in my family to ever hold a degree. Benjamin Franklin another founding father once said "Money spent on books is never wasted". I'm sure he said that because he was a printer, but there is some truth in it. None of our rights are absolute they have to be weighed on a scale with the public interest and good kept in mind. One thing that gets me about the crowd jumping up and down about the 2nd amendment, is so many of your other basic rights have went the way of the buffalo, after 911, in the name of making our country more secure. U.S. citizens are being held at our base in Cuba with no right of a speedy trial, they just sit there. We also have all those prisoners of war that have sit there for the last 10 years. That goes back to the King being able to hold you in a dungeon for years with no trial. Think about that one. Have a blessed day.

Steve Miller Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:22 am

??????? There are NO U.S. citizens being held in our base in Cuba!

The people being held there (by Obama) are enemies of this country sworn to kill "the citizen's of the U.S. in an on going conflict.

The Lone Ranger Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:14 am

Steve Miller wrote:??????? There are NO U.S. citizens being held in our base in Cuba!

The people being held there (by Obama) are enemies of this country sworn to kill "the citizen's of the U.S. in an on going conflict.

There are at least 2 or 3 citizens being detained. They have been held almost as long as the so called prisoners of war. The historical suspension of habeas corpus first happened during the Civil War, when the normal legal process totally broke down, in areas where there was no government control. Do you really think that if they can kill citizens with a drone, without a trial, they wouldn't hold a citizen without one? The detained are unlike any other prisoners of war, since this war will continue it looks like forever. This is against the Geneva Convention. Eventually even the Russians let go of the German prisoners of war after WWII. It was several years but they did let them go. That is why all of our Veteran groups are very concerned about accounting for all P.O.W and M.IA. American servicemen. During the Korean War some Vets are believed to have been held and never released until they died. We are not sure we even got back all of our Vietnam Vets. The point is Thunder some of these scooped up persons could have been just picked up, there has been no hearing, and no charges made. I'm not sure if the 2 or 3 are naturalized citizens but they are citizens. Personally if they are going to hold anyone they should have a trial even if it is a Military Tribunal, which is perfectly alright under the Uniform Code Of Military Justice. At least there would be an illusion of some kind of legal redress. How would you like to be held forever, with no trial and no charges made?

Steve Miller Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:21 pm

Name one U.S. citizen being held in Guantanamo. I have never heard of any!

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